Curse

Vazze · Apr 30, 2008, 02:25 PM // 14:25

I know of two DD monk builds that are many times better than the infamous signet smiter (DPS=30): one of them was posted, and the other one was hinted (necrosis+signets), one of them is a very strong build, the other one is reasonable. I have all the guardian titles and I did them with DD monk, mostly with H/H (sometimes with dual hero) teams. Let me know if any of you can do the same with a smiters boon build. Until then start calculating damage and heal from the build if you want to compare it to other builds.
Let me get you started: SH: ~3 (max 6) dps; SC: ~4 (max 8) dps; RD: ~9 (max 18) DPS (note: you will not be able to spam your skill on recharge, conditions and hexes are not so common in pve, getting the max damage from rd consistently is obviously not possible). Sum it up: you have a pathetic 16-20 non-focused DPS: you might as well start wanding random targets with your healer monk and have the same effect (or you are equivalent to a strong minion).

horseradish · Apr 30, 2008, 08:20 PM // 20:20

The signet smiter build may have more DPS per skill, but that's just one arguable aspect. The fact that the Smiter's Boon monk has AoE, healing, and utility along with damage already contributes more to the party than the signet monk.

This build may be more situational than a regular DD monk, but it's far more valuable when conditions are met. Besides, there are plenty of areas in PvE where conditions and hexes exist. It's not difficult to meet the requirements of SH and SC.

I don't understand why people think this thread is about DD builds. The OP asked for a damage build, and me, Carinae, Dr. Strangelove, and other posters recommended the more effective build. While it's focus isn't on damage, it is a more valuable build in nearly all other aspects.

Monk should NEVER focus on damage. It is a total waste in doing so. When you have ample healers/protecters and damage dealers, why not support both?

Do you not realize how strong this build is? Your post only focused on the damage, which is a big mistake; you're advocating what a monk should not be. The only time damage is acceptable is when it is a side effect to actually useful skills.

The beauty of Dual Booning is it's ability to support offense and defense. With the two boon skills and RoD, you have a 1/4 sec cast, 3 sec recharge, 138 point heal. With Smite hex/condition, you get utility with ward-range, Armor ignoring, AoE pressure damage. The other three skills are, essentially, optional. Fill it in with any skill you'd like, for this is an extremely versatile character.

When you compare single-target damage to AoE damage, healing, utility, and flexibility....well, i'm sure you know the answer.

Carinae · Apr 30, 2008, 08:28 PM // 20:28

You shouldn't be running Smite unless you're facing Undead, otherwise your giving up damage another class could deal better.

Vazze, your numbers are wrong, you situation is wrong, and your assumption about hexes/conditions is wrong.

EDIT: I'll flat out say it: When used properly, the Dual-Boon build will outdamage ANY monk DD build. By far.

FoxBat · Apr 30, 2008, 09:40 PM // 21:40

Support Smiters aren't going to be racking up the single target DPS (aside from Strength of Honor, which is quite good...) Its all about the AoE there.

Stormlord Alex · Apr 30, 2008, 09:40 PM // 21:40

Direct-damage smiters are bad.

Sure, they might have more unconditional dps than a support smiter, but they do RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO-all to support the team - in essence, a monk's job.

If you want to deal straight damage as a monk, screw the smites - go /N and spam Necrosis, /Me and fit as many Cry of Pains onto your bar as possible, or just go Ursan. Direct-damage smiting is terribad.

Vazze · Apr 30, 2008, 10:38 PM // 22:38

...bad numbers....ugly numbers....we hates you all... So did you all fail math or you just simply do not like it? Do you even know the dps value of any common build?
If you don't like numbers than show me only one video sequence from a HM mission (no undead!) where your dual boon build has better damage than 1-2 minion AND similar healing power to a HB or WoH monk! Dual boon (SB/DB) is a mediocre healer build with some damage; certainly better build than the crappy signet smiter, but nothing special.

Gun Pierson · May 01, 2008, 12:17 AM // 00:17

Signet smiter all the way. 14 in smite, 12 inspiration (mantra of inscr)

minor smiting, sup vigor, 3 runes of vitae, sentry inscr.(+10 armor while in stance), caster shield (hp + 45 while in stance, rec phys dmg -2 in stance)customized smiting rod with 15^50 and 20% recharge.

Result: a bad ass monk with 78 armor and 605hp and unlimited energy with a fast dmg dealing build, no line of sight needed. Passive defense + highest dmg output in the smiting line.

Also very handy when playing h/h as you can call targets very fast and with ease. I call them 'Sturm monks' or storm monks. Also works great with other signet smiters supported by a mm and the regular healing/prot monks.

AoE dmg doesn't work for me in HM, where I like to kill things fast. I want the enemies to stay in front of the line of minions so we can snipe them fast, one by one.

This build is actually very flexible as you always have 2 spots left to put skills in. Light of deldrimor for close encounters and dungeons for example. You want more interupt, take leech signet and another inter. signet from domination or so. Hex and condition removal: smite hex and smite condition. Or pop up a flame djinn together with an ebon assassin to get some more decoys on the field or when you open the attack etc.

The sniping feeling of the direct signet smite builds gives me a rush, time and time again. But to each his own ofcourse.

Dr Strangelove · May 01, 2008, 01:00 AM // 01:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vazze

...bad numbers....ugly numbers....we hates you all... So did you all fail math or you just simply do not like it? Do you even know the dps value of any common build?
If you don't like numbers than show me only one video sequence from a HM mission (no undead!) where your dual boon build has better damage than 1-2 minion AND similar healing power to a HB or WoH monk! Dual boon (SB/DB) is a mediocre healer build with some damage; certainly better build than the crappy signet smiter, but nothing special.

A superpowered RoD heals for 147, if you count the negation, it'll counter 213 points of damage. A WoH guy heals for 122 on targets over 50%, and 216 on targets under. The numbers are quite comparable. HB monks are pretty shitty, but there's really not a great comparison between the two. HB monks pump out heal party, but suck at most everything else.

Anyway, you're mostly missing the point on what makes the build good. First, it's damn near impossible to interrupt thanks to the 1/4 second cast times. Second, you have an open elite, which is often used for energy management. That gives you a hell of a lot more staying power. As a distant third, you have some respectable AoE that you didn't have before. The damage becomes more important in PvP, as it doesn't allow enemy warriors to frenzy in your face

Carinae · May 01, 2008, 01:02 AM // 01:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vazze

If you don't like numbers than show me only one video sequence from a HM mission (no undead!) where your dual boon build has better damage than 1-2 minion AND similar healing power to a HB or WoH monk! Dual boon (SB/DB) is a mediocre healer build with some damage; certainly better build than the crappy signet smiter, but nothing special.

I'm repeating myself, but... YOU DON'T RUN SMITING EXCEPT VERSUS UNDEAD.

It doesn't deal significant damage compared to ANY of the damage dealing classes! Run a Warrior, run a Sin, run a Ranger, run a Necro, run an Ele... Hell, a mesmer could probably outdamage a Smiter. I guarantee that all five of those classes outdamages a Smiter by a LOT. Don't waste a party slot on a Smiting monk unless it's vs. Undead. Hell, Blood Magic is a better DD line than Smiting, and Blood sucks as DD.

Now, if you're fighting Undead, then Smiting is the way to go, but even then you don't want a pew-pew single-target build. You want ward-range, double-damage AoE nukes. Oh, AND you get a 138hp heal AND remove a hex/condition/reverse damage at the same time.

All for 5e (for free is Divine Spirit is up)

horseradish · May 01, 2008, 01:05 AM // 01:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vazze

...bad numbers....ugly numbers....we s you all... So did you all fail math or you just simply do not like it? Do you even know the dps value of any common build?
If you don't like numbers than show me only one video sequence from a HM mission (no undead!) where your dual boon build has better damage than 1-2 minion AND similar healing power to a HB or WoH monk! Dual boon (SB/DB) is a mediocre healer build with some damage; certainly better build than the crappy signet smiter, but nothing special.

Once again, you take things out of context.

You're comparing "1-2 minion" (wth you talking about?) and massive healing power to a support character. If I understand what you're saying, you want to compare two party members to one.

You also claim that Dual Booning is a mediocre healing build with a bit of damage on the side. You cannot be more incorrect. It is a SUPPORT build. The damage isn't mediocre either because it's AoE (very important for PvE mobs). This build supports Offense and Defense (which is pretty difficult for the signet monk, mind you). It is a great asset to a team with enough defense and offense because it only makes both more powerful.

The signet build is fun, sure, but how can you compare an offensive char with a support char?

I am in no way putting down that skill bar, it's perfectly fine, but if I had the choice of bringing the Signet build over the Dual Boon monk, I'd take the latter. It's simply more effective. You don't need a video to understand that.

Vazze · May 01, 2008, 01:47 AM // 01:47

Carine:

Please show me your blood/mesmer/ranger builds with 70-80 DPS (don't worry about the 3 knockdowns, or the unblockable, armor ignoring damage, just concentrate on the DPS). There are warrior/sin builds above 80 DPS, but since they are melee characters, their actual DPS can never reach the maximum, so list W and A builds with 100-110 DPS or above please (actually, there are some). Shall I wait for you until you look it up and come back or you know them by heart?

Horseradish: pls read my posts again, we are NOT talking about the Mo/Me signet smite build, as I have said already (TWO times actually) that is a weak build. We are talking about the monk version of the norn/sin build that Maverick and I posted (and possibly about a necrosis/signet spamming build that nobody posted, I just said that I know about it and it is reasonable). If you like dual boon, then play it, it is fun, it is ok against undead but not so much against other things.

horseradish · May 01, 2008, 03:13 AM // 03:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vazze

Horseradish: pls read my posts again, we are NOT talking about the Mo/Me signet smite build, as I have said already (TWO times actually) that is a weak build. We are talking about the monk version of the norn/sin build that Maverick and I posted (and possibly about a necrosis/signet spamming build that nobody posted, I just said that I know about it and it is reasonable). If you like dual boon, then play it, it is fun, it is ok against undead but not so much against other things.

You barely talked about the Norn/sin build. In two of your recent posts, you only spoke about the "mediocrity" of the Dual Boon build. Where have you written about your "leet" builds recently? I only see one of them on the first page.

Anyways, I highly doubt your Norn/Sin build is a valid Smiting build. You only have three monk skills, the two Norn skills are available to any character, and I'm pretty sure sins are just as competent with that build as monks.

It looks fun,, but it's not a Monk build.

Carinae · May 01, 2008, 03:34 AM // 03:34

Vazze: Show me a Master of Damage screenshot WITH the build visible, showing 70-80 DPS on a Smite Monk. Screenshot or it didn't happen. You haven't posted a single build but you talk it up good.

Ranger: Splinter-Barrage, Splinter-Volley, Touch Ranger, and on and on and on...

Mesmer: I dunno, but I'd put money on Avarre over a Smite build.

Blood: I could post a blood build that does near to that damage, and gains lifestealing as well. But single-target DD sucks.

Dr Strangelove · May 01, 2008, 03:38 AM // 03:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

Vazze: Show me a Master of Damage screenshot WITH the build visible, showing 70-80 DPS on a Smite Monk. Screenshot or it didn't happen. You haven't posted a single build but you talk it up good.

Ranger: Splinter-Barrage, Splinter-Volley, Touch Ranger, and on and on and on...

Mesmer: I dunno, but I'd put money on Avarre over a Smite build.

Blood: I could post a blood build that does near to that damage, and gains lifestealing as well. But single-target DD sucks.

He posted it on page 1. It's essentially a caster sin, but using the smite skills for damage and following up with norn shouts.

Carinae · May 01, 2008, 04:06 AM // 04:06

Ah, my bad. I actually looked before I posted that, didn't see his post.

For the record, Kwan's signet smiter gets a whopping 24 DPS at the Master of Damage.

cellardweller · May 01, 2008, 04:21 AM // 04:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

Ah, my bad. I actually looked before I posted that, didn't see his post..

I looked at his post and didn't see a smite monk. Its a below average AP/PvE spammer which will be outdamaged by a mesmer or sin in the same role because its missing out on the 400-800 damage each cycle that CoP generates.

If the discussion is turning towards relying on pve skills and teammates (for AP), then judges insight alone will take a VoS dervish's dps from 140 to 170 and can be maintained on two of them.

Vazze · May 01, 2008, 05:42 AM // 05:42

I don't recall calling it a smite build (although the majority of the damage comes from smiting): the build works with most primary professions including monks. It is beside the point which profession is the best at it. Indeed, a mesmer could do some serious damage here: unat sig(sig of disrupt) /AP/frag/cop/YMLD/FH, target dead in 5-6s but I would not be in a hurry to say it is better (energy problems). Or an elementalist can use it with high damage and long recharge spells, it would work, but eles have many other better ways to deal damage and lead a H/H team, whereas for monks this is pretty much the only one. (Carine: ...er touch ranger??? are you kidding? dps=30...)

Age · May 01, 2008, 06:44 AM // 06:44

I am not sure how a Mesmer or Necro would heal up if taking damage from Scourage Sacrifice and Scourage Healing.

cellardweller · May 01, 2008, 07:51 AM // 07:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vazze

I don't recall calling it a smite build (although the majority of the damage comes from smiting)

*points at thread title* The smiting signets just slows down the damage from the pve skills and do nothing to the build - You'd be better off if you didn't have them on your bar at all. The shadowstep is totally counter productive, because if the you'll take more damage in the 2-3 seconds you're standing in the ball of enemies.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vazze

: the build works with most primary professions including monks. It is beside the point which profession is the best at it.

If the build is run on more effectivly on another class then you're better off bringing one of them instead.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vazze

whereas for monks this is pretty much the only one.

The optimal monk damage build has already been described - [reversal of damage][smite hex][smite condition][smiter's boon]. You'll do much more damage and be far more useful to your team by plugging [assassin's promise] and 3 pve skills into that build because the base is so much more effective than a suicidal shadowstepper doing mediocre single target damage.

Vazze · May 01, 2008, 08:47 AM // 08:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

*points at thread title* The smiting signets just slows down the damage from the pve skills and do nothing to the build - You'd be better off if you didn't have them on your bar at all.

Now I am not sure if you know how AP works: AP must trigger otherwise you are cooked, surely you can count until 480.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

The shadowstep is totally counter productive, because if the you'll take more damage in the 2-3 seconds you're standing in the ball of enemies.

In order to use the highest damage smite skill, you need to be in touch range, you don't want to walk in there, do you? The shadow step allows you to teleport in and out quickly and safely. (er, that's the point of shadow stepping). After you teleported you still have 2kds under your sleeve and an advice: whatever build you are running, do not ever teleport into a ball of mobs, wait/look for a different target/etc ("luckily", shadow stepping is not a must here).

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

If the build is run on more effectivly on another class then you're better off bringing one of them instead.

Thats the beauty of GW, you can do many things in many ways.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

The optimal monk damage build has already been described - [reversal of damage][smite hex][smite condition][smiter's boon]. You'll do much more damage and be far more useful to your team by plugging [assassin's promise] and 3 pve skills into that build because the base is so much more effective than a suicidal shadowstepper doing mediocre single target damage.

We added up the DPS values from the skills, your so called "optimal build" has just a little more damage than wanding and the damage is randomly targeted, it has worse heals than other monk builds and since you will be targeting allies, it is annoying to use with heroes.